First Question for Alan- Is there a Ctex drag set that fit Daiwa Millionaire SW203?

[stickbom!]

Hi Alan, welcome to Fishing outing Have you ever swapped the stock drags from a Millionaire SW203 to Ctex? I'm thinking of doing it for mine and would need some guidance from someone who has done it before. Thanks!

Cabela's -- Daiwa Millionaire® SW Bar-Stock Casting Reel

[alantani]

Originally Posted by stickbom!

Hi Alan, welcome to Fishing outing Have you ever swapped the stock drags from a Millionaire SW203 to Ctex? I'm thinking of doing it for mine and would need some guidance from someone who has done it before. Thanks!

Cabela's -- Daiwa Millionaire® SW Bar-Stock Casting Reel

honestly, i don't know for sure. i've never worked on one of these before. there is a millionaire washer and if it does not fit perfectly, then they are very easy to cut. i have a box of all of the small carbon fiber drag washers that penn makes. you can see that box in the "tools" post below. i also have about half of the carbontex washers made by dawn of smoothdrag.com. the drag washers often do not have to fit perfectly. if they are even "close," then honestly they should work fine. greased carbon fiber works that well.

i have a quick and easy way of cutting down the outer diameter using a grinder. it makes alot of carbon dust (that you should not breath in!) but it comes out great. i can also bore out the inside diamater with a small dremmel. the issue is often also one of thickness. the penn washers are typically thicker. a stack of penn washers could be too thick, which means you will have to go to carbontex. they are typically thinner, and twice the quality at twice the price.

i will try to get photos out. in the meantime. can you check the dimension of the daiwa drag washers. i'll need the millimeter dimensions for the inner diameter, the outer diameter and height (thickness). alan

[Makaira]

Originally Posted by alantani

..........which means you will have to go to carbontex. they are typically thinner, and twice the quality at twice the price.

Hi Alan,

First & foremost, a big welcome to the forum!!!

That is a very interesting comment you made. Pricing aside, please share with us how Carbontex is twice the quality of the HT-100's -- different weave, better quality materials; manufacturing process etc . Also, how does the C'tex compare with the drag material used in Accurates & Avets.

Best regards,
Makaira

[alantani]

well, for starters, you're absolutely right. really, the quality of the two drag washers is the same. they both perform equally. but like two different cars that are equal in all other regards, if one fits in a parking spot and another does not, that could matter very much.

carbontex washers are not used in accurate fishing reels, but here is the way that the cost of carbon fiber was explained to me by the guys that make the accurate fishing reels. the difference is the weave. here is a carbontex washer in front and to the left, and a penn ht-100 washer behind and to the right.



note the finer weave of the carbontex washer. this allows for the washer to be thinner, but this makes the material more expensive. some trinidad/torium carbontex washers have an even finer weave, with two sheets glued together. the coarser, thicker weave of the penn ht-100 is supposed to be cheaper, but works fine and i have been able to adapt them to many models of reels. for some, like the trinidad/toriums, ambassaduers and newells, the penn ht-100 drag washer were thicker than the stock drag washers and created endless headaches. here is a stack of five of the #6-965 penn ht-100 drag washers that i used to adapt to the 5 and 6 series ambassaduers....



and here is a stack of five of the carbontex washers that are intended use in the same ambassaduers.



the carbontex washers are nearly half as thick. it has made servicing the ambassaduers much easier. but more to the point, you are absolutely correct, "quality" was a poor choice of words. and now that you mention it, the reason that the penn drag washers are half the price might simply be the result of volume purchasing. it is a fact that i have had excellent results adapting penn drag washers to many reels. the reels i just mentioned had always been a headache because the equivalent sized penn washers were just too thick. when carbontex came along, all of those problems went away. but in terms of "quality," yes, they are the same. sorry for the confusion. alan

[stickbom!]

Thanks Alan. I'll try and remove the drags from my Millionaire tonight

[Makaira]

Hi Alan,

Thank you very much for your response. You read between the lines extremely well

On another subject, you seem to propagate the use of "wet" drags. What are pros & cons of using it "wet" or "dry" with regards to carbon fibre drags in general, be it Carbontex, HT-100 or any other similar material?

Best regards,
Makaira

[stickbom!]

Hi Alan, here's the dimensions of my original drags- OD:24.5mm ID:14.6mm Thickness :0.5mm

Are there any matching Ctex drag sets for my reel? Many thanks in advance.

[alantani]

Originally Posted by Makaira

Hi Alan, Thank you very much for your response. You read between the lines extremely well On another subject, you seem to propagate the use of "wet" drags. What are pros & cons of using it "wet" or "dry" with regards to carbon fibre drags in general, be it Carbontex, HT-100 or any other similar material? Best regards, Makaira

ah, yes, wet versus dry. seems like i've been fighting this battle for the last 10 years.

just so we're all on the same page, i'd like to define a few terms i use. the first is "start up." when you first pull on the line, some drags tend to stick a little, so you have to pull a little harder. once the line starts moving, it may take, say, 5 pounds of drag to keep the line moving. that initial pull may take 6 pounds to get it started. that extra pound (or 20%) is what i refer to as "start up." with a horribly sticky drag, the start up might be as high as 100%. my personal preference is zero.

the next is your drag setting. simple enough. it's the number of pounds needed to keep the line peeling off the spool once it starts moving. that number will increase as the spool height decreases. it actually doubles when the spool height decreases by half. for spinning, star and lever drag reels, i will quote a drag setting but always add "at the top of the spool, " even if i do not.

then there is "accelleration" or "high speed runout." this is the nasty tendency for a greased drag to become more slippery. a gentleman named cal sheets in the united states, and an gentleman named jack erskine in australia, have both done work on this. imagine a situation with a large shimano tiagra 80, a 50# drag setting, and a 500# tuna. such a fish might take a 100 yard run in 10 seconds. cal sheets had found that the functional drag would decrease as much as 40% during these hard runs. it was not necessarily a function of temperature, it was interestingly more a function of speed.

the shimano star drag grease is a pure teflon product that has a melting temperature of 300 degrees farenheit. when applied in excess, this problem with accelleration was noted. when the excess was removed, it became less of a problem, but i do not know how much less. cal sheets also now sells a pure teflon grease. it has a melting temperature of 500 degrees farenheit. it is applied liberally to the drag washer of a large lever drag reel, then the excess is vigorously wiped off. cal sheets says that this has eliminated the problem of accelleration. i have no reason do doubt his work, but i have not seen the data.

and lastly, my definition of a properly functioning drag system. try this with your own rod and reel. spool the reel with a desired line weight. let's say 20 pound monofilament, just to pick a number. place the reel on the rod. run the line through the guides. tie with line off to a 5 pound weight, which is 25% of your line weight. clamp down on the drag star. reel down to the weight. lift the rod up until the grip is at a 45 degree angle. now adjust the drag until the weight drops one foot every 5 seconds. if your reel can perform to this level, then you have near zero start up. this is my definition of a properly functioning drag system.

now, regarding grease in top drag spinning reels, bait casters and small to medium conventional star drag reels. i find a carbon fiber drag washer that gives me a "best fit." i can cut them down to size pretty easily if needed. i slap a thick coat of grease on the drag washers, install them and let the grease squeeze out the sides. when i first started doing this, my friends were amazed at the smoothness and level of performance and reliability. many tackle pros, shop owners, repair personel and industry were adament that i was totally wrong. sometimes, it got personal. so what i did was to slap in more grease, and then take pictures. and one fisherman, after another, after another, would say "yes, i own this reel," and "yes, it is as smooth as he says." oh, and "yes, these drags last forever!"

so i use excess grease in non-lever drag reels just to annoy the non-believers. what about lever drag reels? i always wipe off the excess, but that is because it allows me to get a higher strike drag setting before losing freespool. i am also concerned about accelleration, but i believe it will only be an issue with one fisherman out of 10,000. the start up remains zero and that's my main concern. the grease also prevents water damage to the drag washer and aluminum pressure plate underneath. and when i say that i've almost won, here's what i mean. shimano started out with greased carbon fiber. they get credit for that original innovation. you will now see greased carbon fiber drag washer in all of the flagship two speed lever drag reels, including penn, daiwa, okuma, accurate and tiburon. only avet and alutecnos have dry systems. someday, that too may change. and then i will call my victory complete.

why not star drag reels? only progear has a greased carbon fiber drag system. i can only guess, but perhaps other manufacturers consider this system to be too expensive. why make a reel with a drag system that will last forever, when they would rather have you buy another reel. and spinners? they WANT you to buy a new one each year. otherwise, why would they introduce a new model yearly? basically, start up is the main issue here. accelleration will never be. this is a battle i know i will never win.

and that, gentlemen, is the history of alan tani and greased carbon fiber drag washers. i'm actually just a pharmacist. this is a hobby that got very badly out of control. somedays, it just drives me crazy, seeing reels being promoted when i know the drag systems will fail miserably. i do try to avoid arguing over the internet. like wrestling with pigs, the pigs like it and you both get dirty. other days, i feel like changing over all the reels to this system, even if i have to do it one reel at a time. personaly, i would ask that you all keep an open mind, and report your findings candidly, whether good or bad.

oh, now where were we? yes, we needed some drag dimensions......

[Makaira]

Originally Posted by alantani

it just drives me crazy, seeing reels being promoted when i know the drag systems will fail miserably. i do try to avoid arguing over the internet. like wrestling with pigs, the pigs like it and you both get dirty ....................... oh, now where were we? yes, we needed some drag dimensions......

Hahahahahahaha!!!! what an excellent analogy!!!!!

Sorry Mikey for hijacking your thread. Edy, perhaps you can seperate this post into 3 seperate thread, the other 2 being the "The Ins & Outs of Carbon Fibre Drags" and "Wet vs Dry" ...... or whatever title Alan deems appropriate. Thanks!

[alantani]

ok, back to the topic at hand. the carbontex drag washer for the 5 and 6 series ambassaduers has the average dimensions of 8mm id x 23mm od x 0.5mm ht. i will call the owner of smoothdrag.com some time this week to complete a collection of one of all of the drag washers that she sells. it would be good information for me to have anyway.

[stickbom!]

Great to know there are blokes out there who are more concerned about the smoothness of a reel's drag than its max pressure output. I still remember myself battling with the jerky drags of early Shimano reels like the Calcutta/Chronarch about a decade back. The drags in these reels worked fine until you get them wet and back then, there were no special drag grease, no carbontex... More recently, I had the same "bad hair day" with the drags in my Saltiga spinners... Thank goodness for the introduction of C-Tex... now everything is smooth as silk

Personally I can't really tell the diff between a wet or dry system... Well maybe a little less hiss from the C-Tex washers when there's a little grease but that's about it. I add a little grease to the metal elements in all my reel's drag stack for the sake of warding off corrosion.

Thanks for your help with the drag sizes Alan

[DaFrogman]

Originally Posted by alantani

ok, back to the topic at hand. the carbontex drag washer for the 5 and 6 series ambassaduers has the average dimensions of 8mm id x 23mm od x 0.5mm ht. i will call the owner of smoothdrag.com some time this week to complete a collection of one of all of the drag washers that she sells. it would be good information for me to have anyway.

Alan,

I did ask Dawn this year if she would be able to give a listing of all the Carbontex washer dimensions that she has in stock. She seemed to think it was a good idea, but it looks like you may beat her to it. That info would be really really handy as I have been trying to get a "Mix N Match" system to fit the drags of many of the JDM reels we have over here that run those icky pure Carbon/Dartanium drags. I currently modify stock Trinidad 40/50 Carbontex drags to fit the the Ocea Jigger 4000P/5000P.

Your break down of the wet vs dry battle is pretty much on the money and that piggy wiggy comment certainly suits some of the discussions that seem to happen on forums around the world when tempers (and maybe egos) flare. Like you, what started as my little reel fixing hobby has kinda gotten out of proportion, but I suspect not nearly as far as you have gone.

Regards,

Saimee.

Oh BTW, did you get my PM on the old Daiwa SL600?.

S.

[alantani]

got it, yes. the drag washer dimensions do not have to be exact. not like in the trinidad/torium/oj and saltist/saltiga line. the washers can swim around a little and still work just fine. height is often overlooked, leaving drag stars to bottom out try to squeeze more drag out of a reel. check the penn drag washer dimensions post. note that there are two different thicknesses. i think five "thick" penn washers will match up nicely to you three stock daiwa washers. maybe stack them "1-gear-2-/-2-/-1-/-)- star". don't forget the washer under the gear. i think a #6-865 fits underneath. i'll get a post together later this week to show how you cut these drag washers down to size. warning, it's a messy process.

[stickbom!]

Hey Alan, turns out the Carbontex dealer here carries the set for my Millionaire and I've swapped the originals out. Have landed a couple of small fishes on the reel already. Can't wait to see how it handles the bigger boys!

[alantani]

so how was it on the smaller fish? did you use drag grease?

[stickbom!]

Yes Alan, I smeared some grease on all the metal surfaces (SS washers) and also on the main gear's cavity where everything sits in. I couldn't really feel the line slipping during the strike initially but later my thumb felt it. Yup, it was THAT SMOOTH! Really great stuff. Can't wait to see if Ctex loses its grip on a faster/stronger fish like spanish Mackerel when I go offshore next month!

[alantani]

hmmm, i typically greaese the carbon fiber washers themselves and make sure the grease gets worked into the fiber. i generally don't grease the metal washers.

[physlo]

Any of you guys know the properties of the cal grease?

[stickbom!]

Feels like skippy's peanut butter after you leave it in the freezer overnight I'm using Shimano and Fisherman drag grease

[alantani]

i'm told that shimano grease melts at 300 degrees farenheit and cal's melts at 500 deggrees farenheit. what's fisherman's grease?

[stickbom!]

I'm not very sure if the Shimano grease that you guys get in the states is similar to those we have here but I'll try to take a photo for you Fisherman is a brand thats pretty big in Japan for their jigging/popping gear. They sell some accessories like hooks, reel handles as well and the drag grease is one of them. Its all oem by other companies though. Fisherman hardly makes anything themselves. Just curious, does our drag really heat up to 300 degress?? that sounds pretty scary to me!