The future of Jigging Blanks?

[tiny]

I havent tried that myself but I understand Graeme has. I guess if you were going to try that you would base if off the drag setting you intend to use.

Hay Nev you got to try it its fun not meaning that in a funny way. I know when I do the Tiny test on the blanks when we get them Graeme leaves the room or he just looks away. We have to do all the scary testing first a gotta know if it will work or not.

Yep it comes down to drag... At the end off the day we the fisherman are asking so much of our rods and reels these days it is scary ....We want lighter rods smaller reels that will pull 18kg-30kg of drag standing up... I'm not ashamed to say I way 195kg and for me to hold onto 30kg of drag for a long time just I cant...I did 30kk+ one day on a Broad bill and I nearly went over the side if it wasn't for two off my mates that grabbed me will I would have been fish food I think. Depending on what fish I'm targeting I will use 6kg-12kg-18kg-20kg of drag at the most. I know what we have tried to do in the Synit Venoms is to make the rod as light as possible, light in the tip to work the jig, power in the mid to set the hook and power in the bottom third to lift the fish but still parabolic to tack all the heart out of the fisherman and put it into the fish.

Good luck all for the weekend T

[MarkR]

Thanks Tiny for dropping by Fishing Outing...

Now it's time for me to head to Rodrigues with the Venoms

[Juan]

I know what we have tried to do in the Synit Venoms is to make the rod as light as possible, light in the tip to work the jig, power in the mid to set the hook and power in the bottom third to lift the fish but still parabolic to tack all the heart out of the fisherman and put it into the fish.

u just summed up what jigging is all about!

well said and wel come to the forum.

[tiny]

Go hard Mark you go get that big Doggy Bro

Thanks Juan

[MarkR]

Go hard Mark you go get that big Doggy Bro

You will be missed by everyone Tiny...i'll go get that Doggie

[MarkR]

Synit Venom Work-out at BSR:

Synit Venom Work-out at Bung Sam Ran

[Jacktrevally]

Because of the mandrel being used on the latest version, it is best suited for a max. length of 5'3".
While we do test for maximum lift capabilities, our main aim now is to design a rod that reduces the pressure on the angler when running higher drag settings.

Hi,

Out of interest do you use a finite element analysis software to design the blank profile and sizing?
Jt.

[MarkR]

We have one angler just back from NTT....he had a great time jigging doggies....took our sole V450FT blank, had it cropped to 4'8" and customized the blank himself...I warned him that 4'8" was a little to much of crop and that Synit recommended a minimum length of 5'2"...Nevertheless he had a great time with the rod landing many doggies and a some 30kg+ specimens...light and still locks he said...will post pics later tonight!

[Sportfisherman]

Hi Mark ,

This guy , did he go to Alor onboard MV Theodora ? Photos of them in fishyforum.com are already uploaded ; Theodoras at Alor - trip # 1 - 31Okt-3Nov 2009 - FishyForum

Jon .

[MarkR]

Hi Jon,

Yes, he was with Theodoras.

cheers,
mark

[Nev]

JT, does this help? I mainly use the bottom section as it allows me to calculate exact wraps with the different materials and accurately predict the weight of a blank before it is made.
Once this is done we make a sample blank and do deadlift and load ratio testing before we make the blank into a rod.
Its great having the software but this alone wont tell you how well a particular design will work a jig in the water. You still have to test them on the water.

[Jacktrevally]

Hi Nev,
very kind of you letting me know how you are designing the blanks as I've asked many times with other rod designers.
Some of the stuffs make sense as I've a background in engineering but haven't work with the behavior of carbon composite.
The program you posted doesn't give you stresses in all the layer of carbon as you already know carbon is an anisotropic material. Finite element is a very expensive program but it offers the possibility to modify the action of the blank by varying the carbon and the composite reinforcement and have predictive failure and weak point in the blank.
As I've seen your prog gives forces in a tapered tube in a class one lever but in a fishing blank we have a class two lever which does a lot of difference.
I know it is possible to build a blank to reduce force on the lever as the tip load exceeds a value. This reduces the resistive force on the angler and that in my opinion will become the future jigging blanks. It's like having two action in one rod and I'm sure this can be built.

[MarkR]

I know it is possible to build a blank to reduce force on the lever as the tip load exceeds a value. This reduces the resistive force on the angler and that in my opinion will become the future jigging blanks.

Hi JT,

You might be interested in this thread on 360Tuna where Nev has contributed a great deal. There is some discussion on load ratios & resistive force on the angler...from what I understand the Synit Venoms have one of the lowest load ratios of any jigging blank out there...

Jig rods/bait rods- Length? - Page 5 - 360Tuna

Graeme from Synit has told me several times that one of the key goals in the Synit jigging rod development programme is to develop rods that will reduce the load on the angler so the angler can fish harder but with less stress and effort...just like you mentioned JT, ... this could very well be one of the areas where jig rod design is headed...

Anyway, I always thought rods were class 3 levers and not class 2 levers...?!?

cheers

[Jacktrevally]

You are right class 3 levers. A different type of cantilever which has the lift effort in between the fulcrum and the load.

Unfortunately, I can't interpret the values for an anisotropic material where I'm more familiar with isotropic material in finite element modelling.

A few years ago when I was at uni, I met a fisherman on a forum who told me that deadlifting and taking surface stress in a rod doesn't always reflect uniformity or linearity in interpolation or extrapolation of data. He explained to me that it was equally important to find the stresses in the carbon layers and that will vary all along the layers in a different plane as carbon is anisotropic. That clever guy was an Aeronautical structural engineer and at that time I was still a student trying to learn finite element in a uni module and I was doing a different field of structural engineering.

Couple of years back I tried to get in touch for help for a rod design I had in mind but in vain.

My idea was to get 2 different actions in a single rod. Action changes with load input hence modifying the force reactions. I know this can be done as there is a very similar application has been commercialised in a different context.

[Nev]

JT,
We are lucky in that the software was supplied to us initailly about 10yrs ago by a couple of the America's cup syndicates as we were making a lot of products for them, they have since been updated. Because we have specialised in marine products we have done a lot of work on reducing delamination within the layers and also between the different materials.
And for your peace of mind we do have a Aeronautical structural engineer working for us.
The new materials you see the guys talking about on the other sites have been around for a few years and basically allow you to get your off axis material into the blank accurately. They have been available to the marine industry in heavier grades for even longer. So you see while some think this material is the latest and greatest it has actually been around for sometime now.
The computor can not predict all the different styles/actions that anglers use.We have 5 different materials going at 5-6 different angles and all inter-layered and then some of the material is in different sections of the blank to alter the action. I've lost count of how many blanks we have broken testing different patterns to produce a 100-135g blank that can lift between 40-45kg off the ground at 45deg and have a load ratio of 2.36 from the foregrip.
And thats my point, the race is on to see who can make a light weight rod under 300grams that cant break. It would be a very brave person to make that claim IMO. There have been people claiming they can lift 150kg at 45deg off the gound on the other sites but I'm still waiting for photos to back their claims up, none have appeared yet.

[Nev]

Mark, the blanks have being designed with different material at different sections of the blank with a fulcrum point being at 650mm. If people cut 5-6" off the blank it will alter the position of the added material in relation to the fulcrum point.
If you have customers that want 4'8" I would prefer to make you a blank specifically for that length so there is less chance of the blank failing.
Would still like to see the pics of the rod and doggies though.

Nev

[Jacktrevally]

Hi Nev,
your last post explains it. That is what I was thinking, building a fulcrum point on the butt. And I take a guess that 650mm is where the positiom of the hand/effort is and that make sense. An extra layer or a different material composite at this point builds the fulcrum, that length of extra build up is important as this determines the fulcrum itself.

Actually, I followed all the talks of that korean blank on the other forum and still waiting for pic as well. As I want to see from their pic if they are using a fulcrum or obtain a different action or angle in their bend.

Do you use autoclaving to reduce the air pockets between the layer of carbon? This helps to retain stiffness over longtime loading. Does it also help to improve the lamination?

I don't know if your company have tried this. Insted of a fulcrum at the effort point, have you ever tried a building of stiffness from 200mm from the butt to 400mm beyond hence stiffening up the blank between the effort and the pivot still leaving a weak point at the pivot? It doesn't reduces the effort of the angler but I guess this will increase the lift power of the blank?

[Nev]

So far I have only used a higher modulus material in the areas you have suggested. Reason being is if I was to add extra cloth it would increase the weight of the blank. When you are trying to make a 350-450g jigging rod under 300grams, adding extra cloth to the lower end where the OD is already larger can quickly add weight to the blank.
It is very tempting to add power to the butt for lifting power but it pushes the main fulcrum further away from the angler and makes it a little harder to get that MJ action nice and smooth.
For popper rods we do increase the power in the lower section but not to the point where it wont flex. I have always felt you need some flexibility in the butt to reduce the effort and increase the distance of casting with these rods.
Guys designing fly rods have known for a while that designing the power point to the mid sections of a blank can increase the casting performance. The whole blank powers up rather than just the lower sections. Adding power to the butt has pros and cons but I admit we make rods with both soft butts and ones with more power and that way we can give the customer both options.

[MarkR]

If you have customers that want 4'8" I would prefer to make you a blank specifically for that length so there is less chance of the blank failing.
Would still like to see the pics of the rod and doggies though.

Nev

Thanks Nev,

That will be fantastic thanks, I will speak to Graeme about this. There are a lot of guys asking for a 4'8" rod these days.

Pics of the doggies will follow soon. Meeting the angler later today. The other anglers on the trip had a go with the 4'8" V450FT and they all like it very much, but I will remind those who have bought the blanks not too trim too much in order to get the best out of the blanks.

Best regards,
Mark

[MarkR]

It is very tempting to add power to the butt for lifting power but it pushes the fulcrum further away from the angler and makes it a little harder to get that MJ action nice and smooth.

Thanks Nev for highlighting this...I could not have explained it better, but i know i've always felt this way that fast actioned blanks felt funny and uncomfortable to MJ with...having used a few calstars very early on for jigging I can say that the action is too fast to impart good jig motion...I have a Ripple 5310 and a few Sevenseas rods which I feel are also on fast side...

[Nev]

Most poeple think the main benifit of autoclaves is to get the air out and get it tighter. I personally think it is more to do with fibre damage when curing.
From university tests that we have had done the majority of strength reduction is caused by the high modulus fibres being damaged if they are under high tension (twisting) in the initial stages of curing. The benefit of autoclaving is there is no tension.
If you are using the wrapping method then as long as you have the tape tensions correct you will achieve the same strength.

JT, we have made rods like the one you suggested but if you have more power in the butt than the effort point you end up with line recovery problems as they tend to be very parabolic above the foregrip. I agree with you though that it doesnt add any more pressure on the angler.
Having said that I made my own rod like that, You get great photos.

[MarkR]

Some pics of the Alor doggies and Jason with a nice doggie landed with the Venom V450FT...not many pics unfortunately as every one was too busy during the frenzy

[Blacksheep]

Liberal use of the gaff I see. Better go quick, I don't think that fishery will last long.

[cwtan12]

Liberal use of the gaff I see. Better go quick, I don't think that fishery will last long.

I also think so. Very agree with you... They should use their bare hands to pull the doggie a few sharks were biting.

Let's go quick.. I am going there next week with a trawler and TNT

[Narc]

Liberal use of the gaff I see. Better go quick, I don't think that fishery will last long.

haha..
I dont know how damaging the gaffs can be but I bet it takes thousands of gaffs to have the same effect as bomb fishing.

Knowing the amount of fishes kept as compared to the amount of fishes landed, I actually salute these guys for non greed and releasing at least 90pct of the fishes.
The use of gaff doesnt neccesarily means killing the fishes.

Fishery in Indonesia never last long anyway so a "better go quick' is good advice.