AR bearings vs AR dogs

[MarkR]

Guys what do you think?

Honestly, I have see a non-magnum boss 270 (1st generation) fail twice. Once in my friend's hands and once in my hands. For the record, I have not seen a magnum boss fail.

For heavy use at near extreme settings do you think dogs or bearings are more reliable?

cheers

mark

[rascal]

Hi Mark

Here, I assume that you are referring to jigging reels and not the big game reels. My opinion is that a combination of both anti reverse bearings and ratchet/dog system would be the ideal solution. The anti-reverse bearing allows zero back play but has been known to fail when very heavy load is applied. The anti-reverse ratchet/dog is a stronger system and is used by all game reels but has some back play due to it's design. Shimano use this combination of both anti-reverse bearing and ratchet system in the Ocea Jigger, Trinadad and Torium reels. Daiwa does it in the Saltiga and Saltist reels. I think this design allows the reel to have a smooth crank with zero back play and has a much stronger anti-reverse ratchet system for that 'drag you into the sea' moment.

Just my thought.


Cheers!

[Makaira]

Originally Posted by MarkR

Honestly, I have see a non-magnum boss 270 (1st generation) fail twice.

Hi Mark,

Personally, back in the early days, I had the anti-reverse bearing failed twice on my first generation single AR bearing Boss 870 set at 16lb drag on hawker centre table-sized stingrays at the Marine Parade wreck. Was real pissed off then, but the recovery by the Accurate people was impeccable. David Nilsen personally attended to my problems via email & as usual, the boys at AO did their thing. Ever since I switched all my Accurate Bosses to the Magnum series with bigger & double anti-reverse bearings, I have not had any further failure up too at least 30lbs drag. As a caveat, this is for the 665 & 665N models. For the 870, I have fished up to 20lbs drag with no problems whatsoever.

As for the question of AR bearings versus dogs, or a combination of both, I believe the chance of failure is always there because of non-stretch braided line & high drag settings. With the double bearing on the Accurate Boss Magnum, I am pretty confident that failure is now pretty remote. So I fish them with confidence.

Hmmmmmmm ...... you must be itching to do the AG conversion on a 665 huh. IMHO, if you can find a 2nd hand 1st gen 665, I believe there are still some floating in the market, then by all means do the conversion to try it out. Otherwise, I think it is a total waste of a perfectly good reel to convert a Magnum with double AR bearings.

Opinions vary of course

Best regards,
Makaira

[MarkR]

Hi Makaira,

Speaking of 1st generation Boss reels, why didn't it dawn on me that I could look for one on ebay since I monitor the ABU sales religously?

Come to think of it, I bet I could get one for a steal on ebay...

Well anyway, I picked a magnum 665N off an FK member for a good price early this year and got the AG mod done A bit of a waste yes but could not resist getting the dogs, power handle and t-knob installed. Was a little miffed when the dog springs gave me some problems, promptly took it down to Fishing Buddy. Apparently it was an installation fault, they apologized and rectifed the fault promptly, so case closed. I still like the modified reel but it does make a huge racket. Very noisy, no other reel with AR dogs makes this much noise...honest!! Incidently a 200kg+ hammerhead was landed on a modified 665N in Taiwan last month.

On a seperate note, Alvin tells me that he has not had AR probs with a Magnum Boss thus far

Wonder why big game reels are never fitted with AR bearings? I suppose the use of AR bearings is a newer development compared to the use of AR dogs and perhaps also because the use of AR dogs is a proven concept that is deeply entrenched in big game reel design.

cheers,

mark

[MarkR]

Hi Rascal,

Thank you for your insights on the smaller Japanese overheads. Pretty interesting!

Tight lines

Mark

[jason]

Hi mark
The sound of the dogs install in Taiwan seems to have a more finer sound than the ones installed in Singapore.....


Cheers
Jason

[MarkR]

Hi Jason,

That's interesting. Perhaps the Taiwan guys are using some lubricants or perhaps it's the finishing work? Is the modification kit similar to the one sold at Fishing Buddy?

Regards,

Mark

PS. Who is the girl in your Avatar? Looks like my girlfriend

[Makaira]

Originally Posted by MarkR

Wonder why big game reels are never fitted with AR bearings? I suppose the use of AR bearings is a newer development compared to the use of AR dogs and perhaps also because the use of AR dogs is a proven concept that is deeply entrenched in big game reel design.

Hi Mark,

Well ........ there are two that I can think of. The super duper expensive
Yen 525K Daiwa SLT 50W TRDS If I ever strike the lottery ...... hmmmmmmmmmmmm. What a piece of engineering art!!! My hands were shivering with excitment when I played around with one Hahahahahaha!!!

http://www.plat.co.jp/english/daiwa/ize/sealine.htm

The other is the Alutechnos. Unless I am mistaken, even their 50's use AR bearings.

Anyway, since AR dogs works well in those class of reels, it's probably a case of "why fix it when it ain't broke" I guess.

Best regards,
Makaira

[MarkR]

Hi Makaira,

Never knew the Daiwa SLT 50W TRDS and Alutechnos used AR bearings.

Thanks,

Mark

[jason]

Originally Posted by MarkR

Hi Jason,

That's interesting. Perhaps the Taiwan guys are using some lubricants or perhaps it's the finishing work? Is the modification kit similar to the one sold at Fishing Buddy?

Regards,

Mark

PS. Who is the girl in your Avatar? Looks like my girlfriend

Hi Mark
I think the kit is the same as the Taiwanese kit......
But still like the sound of the Taiwanese mod kit....

Cheers
Jason

PS-That gal is already mine.....Hehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!

[physlo]

Originally Posted by jason

Hi mark
The sound of the dogs install in Taiwan seems to have a more finer sound than the ones installed in Singapore.....


Cheers
Jason

Jason, who let the dogs out...whoo...whoo...whoo....whoo!!!!!

[supersky]

Originally Posted by jason

PS-That gal is already mine.....Hehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Jason, ur keep changing ur cover girl izzit??

Ur slogan might scare someone away.... :P


U don't dare to drop to drop the jig, rod will bend, line will snag...... where is the place.... ahh...kallang river.

Cheers,
Vincent

[jason]

[rascal]

Hi Makaira

I didn't know Alutecnos reels and the Daiwa SLT 50W TRDS use anti-reverse bearings. I've only toyed with some of the commonly available reels. Wonder how the Alutecnos reels feel like?

Following your link I can see why you were excited playing with the Daiwa SLT 50W TRDS. That's some engineering marvel, I was drooling just looking at the pictures when I should be drooling looking at Jason's avatars. Converted into S$ the reel cost more than S$8000.00, time to try my luck at 4D tomorrow.


Cheers!

[scarpie]

Congrats Edy on a neat site! So many of my friends here too, I'm felling very welcomed already!

About the boss, all the 1st generation boss reels had poor quality AR bearings supplied and suffered with the many. Once Accurate worked out what was going on, they fired the bearing supplier and designed a better one. It was at this time that AG developed their twin AR docking kit to overcome these poor bearings. Accurate introduced the magnum version which had all the new parts and sincethen there has been very few failures. AG even admits that they have experienced little AR bearing failures in the magnum reels. They still like their AR dogs though and their reels sound like a buzz instead of a click.

BTW Mikey, are you getting my emails?

[stickbom!]

Yikes~! It's been a while since I last checked my Yahoo mail account. Drop me an email at work in future because I'm on regular office hours now and have very little to no time to check my various mail acconts. Still check my Hotmail regularly during lunch time though :P

How's things over in NZ buddy? You must be having a swell time with the Ocea Jigger

[scarpie]

Yeah Mike, that Jigger 4000P is one sweet reel! So much, I ordered another and the 5000P bigger brother.
Have been doing well recently jigging up Hapuka (Grouper) and surprising the charter operators that these fish were so partial to jigs, also caught plenty of Kingies which also surprised since we are into winter now.
Great news you can make it to NZ 2006. There will be some great Kingies & Puka action for you during April. Last time, the guys did really well catching some quite big squid at night while at anchor. Man so much to talk about, you have to get here!

[stickbom!]

It's nice to hear from you again buddy, send my regards to your wife and kids. Seeya in April 06' for some Kingie bashing

[DaFrogman]

Just to chuck in a touch more into the cauldron on AR dogs versus AR bearings...

I've seen both the Accurate Boss Magnum and the the Shimano AR bearings up close. I have already replaced 3 sets of AR bearings on 3 different Shimano reels; 2 Kaikons and a Jigger 3000. Additionally, I've found that the backup AR Dog on the Shimano's, can get grooved by the AR Gear and if this happens the dog will not engage properly and will over stress the AR Bearing under heavy loads leading to failure..... and bruised knuckles .

Anyway, its just purely a visual and touch observation, but I believe that the AR Bearings on the Boss Magnums are much stronger than the ones on the Shimanos. The Shimanos use a plastic bearing race whilst the Accurates are all metal...... So what we need is actually a reel with the twin AR Accurate bearings AND the twin AR Dogs from the Jigger 4000 & 5000.... Yooohoooooo Shimano....ARE YA LISTENING?.

Regards,

DFM

[physlo]

Originally Posted by DaFrogman

Just to chuck in a touch more into the cauldron on AR dogs versus AR bearings...

I've seen both the Accurate Boss Magnum and the the Shimano AR bearings up close. I have already replaced 3 sets of AR bearings on 3 different Shimano reels; 2 Kaikons and a Jigger 3000. Additionally, I've found that the backup AR Dog on the Shimano's, can get grooved by the AR Gear and if this happens the dog will not engage properly and will over stress the AR Bearing under heavy loads leading to failure..... and bruised knuckles .

Anyway, its just purely a visual and touch observation, but I believe that the AR Bearings on the Boss Magnums are much stronger than the ones on the Shimanos. The Shimanos use a plastic bearing race whilst the Accurates are all metal...... So what we need is actually a reel with the twin AR Accurate bearings AND the twin AR Dogs from the Jigger 4000 & 5000.... Yooohoooooo Shimano....ARE YA LISTENING?.

Regards,

DFM

Long live Shimano....yeah. Collecting my 4000P this Wednesday.

cheers!
physlo..