The Penn Torque: Finally a decent HighSpeed reel from Penn?

[DaFrogman]

As usual, I found myself doing some late night net trolling and trawling.

Saw the reference to a new Penn reel called the International Torque series... 3 pretty cool reels guys. I at first thought that it was just a knock off of the Trini series like has been done by other reel manufacturers, but after looking through the info, it proved very interesting for me I must admit.

What Penn have done essentially is to take the Kaikon and basic star drag reel design and beef up a few things. Apparently they have also come up with a new bridge design that is supposed to be stronger than anything else out there and is able to keep everything in alignment at high drags especially the main gear stud that attaches to the reel handle.

I downloaded the "More Info" PDF file and had a look... it is very interesting. This is a Penn reel that gives you:

1. All stainless steel gears and load bearing parts,
2. A very wide gear mating surface (pinion & main) and what look to be helically cut gears,
3. Twin anti reverse dogs and a SS Steel AR bearing,
4. 6.3:1 ratio on all sizes and between 31-41 to 48 inches of line retrieval per crank (48 with the biggest sized reel; Torque 300),
5. Max Drag rating is supposed to be at 25-32lbs (mid and large sized reel both make 32lbs), using the Penn Duradrag which would be the same stuff used in their Internationals,
6. Weights ranging from 454-566-822 grams,
7. Braid capacities as reel sizes increase of 550yds/30lb, 450yds/50lb, 360yds/80lb,
8. A Trini style power handle knob (with similar style handle offset),
9. A 665 Boss type form factor with what looks like a slightly taller spool.

The details in the PDF file also takes a direct shot at the Torsa in gear size comparisons. The illustration in the file show a Torsa gear on the left, what looks to bea Trini 40 gear in the middle (Could be wrong here) and the Torque gear on the right. BUT what is interesting is that whilst the Penn gear is certainly taller thereby providing more gear surface, the Torsa gear is still noticeably wider.

Penn also took a shot at the hardness of the gears used by Shimano saying that the Shimano gears were made of a metal so soft that they could not measure it with the same instruments used to measure the Penn gears. However its worth thinking about hardness here.... the reason that most Jap reels don't use pure stainless steel gears is because SS is much harder and the SS engagement is therefore much rougher than brass of aluminium alloy (like the difference felt and heard between the Accurate Twinspin gears and its Japanese counterparts). This reduces the "smoothness" that Jap anglers look for and which I like too. That said, SS gears should prove more durable in the long run, but I tell ya that I have yet to wear our the bronze/brass gears on any of my reels.

The ISP innovation is interesting too. Now at first glance it looks just like a Kaikon with a separate gear section that supports the main gear stud and keeps the main gear in alignment. In this regard, it looks sturdier than a Kaikon sideplate which is made of pretty thin metal. However the main thing I like here is that the entire section that supports the AR bearing housing and the main gear stud is one big 100% machined piece on the Penn.

On the Kaikon, the AR bearing housing is riveted on to the sideplate. Over time, that housing can and will come loose, especially if you run silly high drags (like I do ). I have replaced the right sideplate on my Kaikon once already for this very reason. There was too much play in that housing and when I ran high drags, I was worried that the main gear would no longer be aligned properly. The AR gear on the Penn is also SS (like the Acc Bosses), compared to the Shimano AR bearing which runs a plastic housing and bearing clutch components.

Anyway, I tend to ramble, but I am very interested in this reel now. Anyone seen it in Spore?.... If it works as advertised, I may just have found the right "Crew" reel that can survive more abuse with a need for fewer spare parts than the Shimanos, BUT I would want to see the full schematics first before I come to any further preliminary conclusions.

I'll attach the relevant PDF for anyone who wants to have a gander but it is 1.4MB in size.

Regards,

Saimee

[stickbom!]

You beat me to posting about it DFM! I've been busy moving to the new place this few weeks... damn tiring I tell you. Anyway, I got a shock after looking at the new Torque... the shot of it's right side plate resembles the Jigger a lot!!

[JIGW]

Actually besides smoothness there are other reasons why extremely hard grade SS is not used for all gearings. One of them is that the harder your metal, the more brittle it gets. Gearings are under dynamic load all the time and if the metal is hard and non malleable, microscopic chipping on the gear teeth and internal stress fractures can occur irregardless of how securely the frame houses the internals. What you will have is minute particles of metal mixed with the grease wearing your gear teeth out faster, esp if you dont regularly service and remove the old grease and replace with new grease. Or worse, in the case of stress fractures the whole gear can break up. That aside, the article is a nice piece of work..........written by a marketing man, not an engineer

Originally Posted by DaFrogman

Penn also took a shot at the hardness of the gears used by Shimano saying that the Shimano gears were made of a metal so soft that they could not measure it with the same instruments used to measure the Penn gears. However its worth thinking about hardness here.... the reason that most Jap reels don't use pure stainless steel gears is because SS is much harder and the SS engagement is therefore much rougher than brass of aluminium alloy (like the difference felt and heard between the Accurate Twinspin gears and its Japanese counterparts). This reduces the "smoothness" that Jap anglers look for and which I like too. That said, SS gears should prove more durable in the long run, but I tell ya that I have yet to wear our the bronze/brass gears on any of my reels.



Regards,

Saimee

[Makaira]

These puppies ain't cheap. Melton already taking orders for delivery in August/September. If they ever reach our shores, I am pretty sure they should be lower than the quoted US prices. I wonder if they will bear the "Made in USA" mark though.

http://www.meltontackle.com/shopping...oduct_id=13689

On the subject of gear material, I have always wondered about alloys vs SS gears. Personally, my preference is for SS gears because my perception is that they are much stronger than other gear materials. This perception is formed by the fact that most "full-fledged" game reels i.e. Penn International, Tiagra, TLD 2 speed, Accurate, Finnor, etc. use SS rather than alloy gearing. Never had to change any of my game reel gears, some of them over 10 years old & they have been fished hard. As such, if given a choice, I would opt for SS gears.

[JIGW]

If I remember correctly, alot of "full fledge" game reels like the Tiagra and the TLD come with traditionally straight cut gears, not the helically cut ones like the "jig" style hi speed reels, hence the ability to use SS.....

Originally Posted by Makaira

On the subject of gear material, I have always wondered about alloys vs SS gears. Personally, my preference is for SS gears because my perception is that they are much stronger than other gear materials. This perception is formed by the fact that most "full-fledged" game reels i.e. Penn International, Tiagra, TLD 2 speed, Accurate, Finnor, etc. use SS rather than alloy gearing. Never had to change any of my game reel gears, some of them over 10 years old & they have been fished hard. As such, if given a choice, I would opt for SS gears.

[Makaira]

Originally Posted by JIGW

If I remember correctly, alot of "full fledge" game reels like the Tiagra and the TLD come with traditionally straight cut gears, not the helically cut ones like the "jig" style hi speed reels, hence the ability to use SS.....

Hi JIGW,

Yes they are all straight-cut gears. As for heli-cut gears, I have no idea as to which metal is better. Me no engineer, but I hope the Penn engineers know what they are doing if they opted for SS gears. Time will tell I guess. Then again, who would know gears better than probably the largest producer of gears / gearing systems in the world i.e. Shimano

You seem to be pretty technically inclined so perhaps you can answer this question for me. With the use of anti-reverse bearings, would there be less stress on the gears in-between cranks under pressure i.e. on the up-stroke when you pumping a fish, as opposed to a system that uses an anti-reverse dog? Saimee, please feel free to chime in on this question as well.

Best regards,
Makaira

[DaFrogman]

Guys,

This is a good discussion. Where is our honoured friend TM Lim .....

Mak, I ain't no engineer either, but as I understand it, the main idea of using helically cut gears is to ensure that when the reel is in gear, the teeth or grooves of the pinion and main gear constantly remain in contact and in the case of the helical gears, more than one of the teeth and grooves would remain in constant engagement and contact and a seamless train of engagement results. This makes the engagement much smoother and quieter too, with less direct stress on the gear teeth but more lateral load on the gear as the helix pushes the gear upwards or downwards along the axis of the gear shaft, which is overcome by using thrust bearings along the gear shaft.

With straight cut gears, the teeth have more impact with each other and the engagement creates more vibration and noise.... But straight cut gears can be subjected to a lot of load without failure, depending on the material used and the teeth size and shape.

Just to put this in real world terms, compare the cranking of the Kaikon and the Boss 665HXM, similar ratios, one helical and one straight cut, but the feeling is totally different, the Kaikon is smoother and seems more refined, the 665 feels less refined, with a definitie grinding feel on cranking under load (plus noiser too).

Now, from my minor dabbling in the car tuning world , you would find that our production passenger cars mainly run helical cut gears for their smoothness and quietness, whereas the rally and drag boys tend to favour straight cut forged gears with big aggressive teeth to handle the shock and load of a ton of horsepower.

Ok, gee I ramble again. I hypothesise that because helical cut gears distribute the load over a wider surface area than straight cut gears, they can use a softer material, since the force exerted per square milimeter would be less than that of the straight cut gears. I also reckon that over time, helical gears using softer metals would tend to wear into each other, i.e. they would wear to match the indentations of contact between gears and become smoother up to a point. If you were to use stainless steel helical gears, the harder nature of the gears might mean that the process of wear might not produce that complimentary wearing process used by the softer metals like brass (marine bronze is pretty damned hard btw).

OK, phew!!!. Mak your question on the AR bearings is damned interesting. Now every part of a reels drivetrain is subjected to a load and when jigging, there is a repetitive shockload involved.

In the past, before the use of AR bearings, the only thing stopping the reel from backlashing (gears turning backwards as line is pulled) were dogs that engaged in a series of teeth on the AR Gear.

Constant dog engagement is very difficult to achieve throughout the range of motion of the AR Gear. The dogs could only engage fully with the teeth on the AR gear at certain points on the circumference of the AR gear. The spool and handle would experience slippage, as the dogs slid into the teeth of the AR gear to engage fully. As this happened, the main gear and pinion gears would also move backwards and when the AR dogs finally enagaged, the main and pinion gears themselves could find themselves not fully in engagement or crashing into engagement. I reckon that with sudden shocks like those jigging or handling a big headshaking fish with repetitive shockloads, the main and pinion gears not fully engaged became subject to chipping.

With the AR bearing, that slippage is eliminated or at least minimised, the tiny clutches on the AR bearing provide multiple immediate stoppage of movement of the main gear shaft and stopped the crashing of gear factor and possibly through very minor controlled slippage, allowed the gears to engage in a more controlled manner (and saved your knuckles too).

If you compare the gearing of say the 665HXM and a game reel like the say an ATD-6, you will also note that the gears on the 665HXM are very finely cut and allow much more constant engagement. The ATD-6 will have brawny beefy gears with a much chunkier and deeper cut. This reflects in part the predicted usage and stresses that will be placed on each reel, where the 665 uses twin AR bearings only and the ATD uses twin dogs. Both are Stainless Steel though.

Now if you combine an AR bearing with helical gears (or even better double helical cut gears), I reckon you get the best of both worlds since the constantly engaging nature of the helical gears really suit the constant stopping power of the AR bearing.

So in short, Mak, I reckon AR bearings do reduce shock and impact in the geartrain, but the loads involved are still the same. As for helical vs straight or brass vs SS, hell, I leave it to the engineers to figure out. Penn has been in the fishing reel business a long time, but so has Shimano and I still reckon that Shimano gear R&D is the best in the business due to its huge cycling division.

In the end what they say about each other basically comes down to marketing hype most of the time. I prefer to judge the products on a standalone merit basis first, then do the comparisons.

I shall now pray that the rubbish I just typed makes a semblance of sense. If not please refer to;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear

Saimee

[MarkR]

Hi guys,

This is turning out to be an interesting thread.

I once witnessed the disassembly of a Boss 665 at a tackle shop (not AO). The guy who was disassembling the reel pointed our very fine marks/grooves in the main gear where the pinion gear had appreantly "dug" in. He explained that these marks were caused by the nature of the Boss lever drag gear system where "stress is transfered from the pinion to the main gear and finally to the AR bearings". In the dog system in star drag reels, the dogs engage the anti-reverse ratchet which is usually positioned under the main gear in the drive shaft and according to the man, this relieves the gears of some stress because stopping force is not applied directly to the gears but to a separate part of the drive train instead. I think this is a logical explanation but it will be nice to see what the reel professor has to say! Come to think of it, I wonder what would happen if a brass main gear was used in a 665 instead...

tight lines

[JIGW]

Hi Mak,
I'm also not technically inclined so correct me if I am wrong, but through my observations, on the upstroke when you are pumping a fish with the rod and not cranking, for a reel with ar dogs only, I would say a bulk of the force is on the ar dog and ar gear with the AR gear sitting locked to the shaft of the handle. The gears are also under load and the max force the gears will take = the slippage of the drag when the fish does take line. The main and pinion is engaged all the time unless in freespool for jig style star reels. Once you start cranking, the additional force is than transferred to the gears via the compressed drag washers, and the ar gear rotates with the handle shaft till the next teeth clicks onto the next dog. Once you release and stop cranking, the force than goes back to the ar gear and dogs again. If there is any backplay in a ar dog system that is sufficient to damage the dogs, you would get your bruised wrist scenario with the handle back paddling.

For AR bearings, again assuming you are on the upstroke when pumping your rod and not cranking, again the bearings will take a bulk of the load together with the gears. When you are cranking, when the compressed washers force the main gear to move and turn the pinion n spool additional pressure will be on the gears.

Only diff I feel between the 2 is when backplay damages the dogs so much that the ar gear tooth is damaged.....otherwise IMHO the force on the gear should be similiar be it dog or bearings...

Originally Posted by Makaira

Hi JIGW,

You seem to be pretty technically inclined so perhaps you can answer this question for me. With the use of anti-reverse bearings, would there be less stress on the gears in-between cranks under pressure i.e. on the up-stroke when you pumping a fish, as opposed to a system that uses an anti-reverse dog? Saimee, please feel free to chime in on this question as well.

Best regards,
Makaira

[MarkR]

Hi Guys,

I think there are generally 2 types of AR dog positioning systems in overhead reels.

In the first system found in the majority of single speed lever or star drag reels, the dogs engage an anti-reverse ratchet that is positioned beneath the main gear (got the names of these parts from the torsa and trinidad blow-ups).

In the second system which I believe is found in some 2-speed reels like the ATDs, the AR dogs engage a "gear-like structure" that sits beneath the pinion gear (pinion gear is part of the spool assembly, see ATD blow-up). Interestingly, the Taiwanese AR dog add-on modification for the Boss reels incorporates a similar "gear-like structure" sitting beneath the pinion gear.

I don't want to hazard guesses on the merits of either system but it seems to me that the second system would put less stress on the gears. Would be nice as well to see what the new pro gear lever drag reels will incorporate given the strong Taiwanese influence on their design.

tight lines

[DaFrogman]

Mark R,

Yes, I think you have summed up the two AR dog systems pretty well.

On the smaller reels using dogs, especially the star drag Kaikon/Abu/Saltiga type reels, the AR dogs and AR gear reside below the main gear.

On many game reels like the AVETS/Tiagras/Penn INT, the AR dogs and gear reside in the left sideplate or on the left hand side of the spool. The exception as you pointed out are the ATDs, possibly because of the confines of the twin drag system.

That said I can't say for sure about the AR system of the AVET T-Rex Quad drags, since they may face similar confinement issues to the ATDs, but I reckon the AR system would be in the left sideplate too.

I think the big difference (and this is what you're getting at Mark) is whether the AR system applies its braking force to the main gear shaft or the pinion gear shaft.

When the AR system applies its braking force to the pinion gear shaft (which is essentially the spool shaft), that relieves the pressure on the gears when the reel is loading up without cranking (e.g. when fish is taking drag), since the braking force is transferred from the pinion shaft directly to the spool. Some residual force will reach the pinion and main gear, but all that would happen is that the gears would shift backwards slightly without coming under further load until the handle is cranked.

But with the AR system on the main gear shaft (essentially the handle shaft), the gears remain under load regardless of what AR system you use since the braking force is transferred from the Main Gear shaft to the main gear, then to the pinion gear then to the spool and line.

This is a great discussion, it moved from a new Penn reel to the gearing system and materials and we are now in the AR Chapter... great stuff guys, I learned a lot of new stuff. Keep it up.

Saimee

[MarkR]

Hi Saimee,

Yes, couldn't have put it better. I'm not familiar with Avets but just had a peek at some schematics. Looks as though all the bigger LD models like the EX and above (not necessarily 2-speed versions) utilize the the second system whereas the smaller LD reels have in them the first system. Interesting...

Cheers,

Mark

[tmlim]

Wow. I think this is another great thread by Saimee and many congratulations to this Forum for having found a very enthusiastic moderator and experience angler. I agree that the larger projected cross-sectional area of the helical gear reduces its shear stress and increases the load carrying capacity.

Here’s my two-cents worth.

1. Brass material is chosen for the gearings because it has lower coefficient of friction, much easier to machine, lower wear and tear on the broaching or hobbing cutters. Hence, cheaper to produce and replace if worn out.

2. For tribology reason, brass works well with a very thin layer of grease/lubricant to provide the smooth squeeze-film effect. On the other hand, although SS is more corrosion resistance but it is hard and unforgiving under high contact pressure. For this reason, rotating machinery usually employs high carbon steel for the rotating shaft element and brass bushing for the bearing supports.

3. There should be little concern on the wear and tear of the brass gearings, if cranking is carried out with zero net torque on spool i.e. pump-crank style.

4. A good AR design would have to closely examine the cyclic distributions and transfer of load between the AR’s dogs and bearing. This is to avoid high energy impulses during AR’s contacts.

5. To achieve minimal play in the spool reverse direction, of course pitch for the AR’s pinion and bearing has to be of smaller dimension.

6. The AR bearing for the Kaikon and Jigger cleverly employs a Nylon outer race to dampen/cushion some of these impulses. Of course, it makes the angler feels good.

7. Ya. Weakness of earlier Japanese Star Drag reels is that the cover plate is too thin to withstand the crushing strength of the rivets. Therefore, the handle exhibits some degree of backlash after some heavy usage. However, they have corrected this problem on their present reel designs.

Once again, many thanks for sharing, energy and time spent on this write-up.

[DaFrogman]

Professor TML,

Hey thanks for dropping in and lending us your opinion, I always enjoy your views from the technical and scientific perspective.

You brought up something none of us posted or thought of, i.e. the impact of the ease of production and the desire of manufacturers to streamline and cost cut the machining, tooling and die making... Great stuff dude.

Just as an additional thought, I never even considered the fact that the nylon/plastic races and bearing body of the AR bearings used in the Kaikon/Trini family, were used to reduce the shock to the handle & angler. I always thought that Shimano were just using cheaper AR bearings. The tiny clutches on these things are plastic too, so be careful when using solvent of any form to clean them, 'cos it could damage these little plastic tabs and therefore your AR bearing with it too. Check that the solvent is safe for all plastics.

Regards,

Saimee

[tmlim]

Originally Posted by DaFrogman

Just as an additional thought, I never even considered the fact that the nylon/plastic races and bearing body of the AR bearings used in the Kaikon/Trini family, were used to reduce the shock to the handle & angler. I always thought that Shimano were just using cheaper AR bearings. The tiny clutches on these things are plastic too, so be careful when using solvent of any form to clean them, 'cos it could damage these little plastic tabs and therefore your AR bearing with it too. Check that the solvent is safe for all plastics.

Regards,

Saimee

Saimee,

Haha. Most of the time, just making educated guesses from others observation and comment. You know 1 + 1 = 2 stuff.

I don’t think those AR bearings are supposed to be cleaned by solvent, especially MEK or worse of all Acetone. Mild degreaser made from Citrus Fruit would be ideal cleaning agent.

It is a bit difficult to visualize or understand how the Nylon or Plastic can assist in dampening the shock transients, that is, unless one places an accelerometer on the reel casing and feed its signal to a Spectrum Analyzer. From my experience, the high frequency ringing contents and harmonics will usually be attenuated with such composite design; although from the outset it may look fragile.

If time permits and in the mood, will setup the experiment to collect the data for better illustration. Will be fishing in KK from 19/6 to 23/6, any tips?

tmlim

[Makaira]

It's been a long long time since a star drag OH caught my eye. Should be great for tossing suface irons. Handle looks a tad short though. Just won best of show at the recent ICAST.



The last star drags I took a fancy to were the Accuratised Penn Senators & the Pro Gear . Prices for the Torque very steep unfortunately, close to USD$400. Wonder how much they will be when they finally land on our shores.

[DaFrogman]

Mak,

I'se is real interested too.... Wish they could post a pic of the Torque next to a Trini 30 or a 665... Then I would get a better idea of size and dimensions.

If the reel costs under S$550, it would be a steal... but I ain't holdin' ma breath on that.

Saimee

[TPfisherman]

Apart from 1 or 2 fanatic gangs in East Malaysia, sportfishermen in Malaysia/Singapore don't really fish that much. So, whose gear is better, Penn's or Shimano's, really is not an issue. We are unlikely to break either one.

But Australia has many people who fish a lot, some do it every weekend.
A very few do it every day; these guys call themselves 'Shamateurs.'

Once, a bunch of Australians compared Penn Jigmaster 500 to Shimano TSM 4 in actual fishing conditions, this testing done continuously over several weeks. Penn J/M had 4:1 gears while the Shimano had in excess of 6:1 gears. The Penn J/M was the first to break down. The Shimano, I am told, is still going on to this day.

If it was only Penn in the market today, and Shimano never came up, we'd all still be struggling with 4:1 gears. Penn was never interested in facing up to the technical and engineering challenge of designing a good high-speed jigging reel. It is a long story, I will leave it for another time.

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by TPfisherman

Apart from 1 or 2 fanatic gangs in East Malaysia, sportfishermen in Malaysia/Singapore don't really fish that much. So, whose gear is better, Penn's or Shimano's, really is not an issue. We are unlikely to break either one.

Don't forget that it's the intensity of the fishing and not just the frequency that leads to gear failure.

There is growing group of fanatical Singapore sportfishermen who spend a tidy sum venturing overseas regularly in pursuit of their dream catch, so it only makes sense for these guys to invest in the best performing gear they can afford. Having said that, there are also many dedicated shore anglers and lurers in Singapore who probably clock as much fishing time as the average Aussie 'shamateur'.

[Tunanorth]

Hi All,
Am way across the globe in California, you have an excellent site.
Have had a pair of Torque 300's since July, have caught dozens of California and Baja fish on them, ranging from 10 to 170 pounds, including bluefin tuna, yellowfin tuna, striped marlin, sailfish, amberjack, yellowtail, etc.
Out here, "yo-yo" fishing is very similar to "jigging", and has been popular for more than 50 years.
So far the Torque 300 has passed all tests with flying colors.
It performs best for me with 50 or 60-pound mono topshots over 65 or 80-pound braid backing.
Around a 3/0 dimensionally, but much beefier frame to handle heavy line and drag settings.
Casts extremely well for its' size.
It's kind of overkill for 30 pound mono for anything except marlin trolling, but would fish nicely with straight 80-pound braid if you like.
Tremendous amount of cranking power considering high gear ratio.
Just got a pair of the Torque 200's, but have not used them yet.
Plan to load them up with 30 and 40-pound mono topshots over 50-pound braid, relatively small in size, only 20 ounces, similar to a T16.
Booked on a 10-day long range San Diego trip leaving October 11 for tuna, wahoo, etc. will report after that on 200's and more use on 300s'.